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31 October 2012

Comments

OK - you sold me - how would you (or any astute reader) propose to measure the national economy? Is there a measure out there (or even the bones of one) that can help us understand whether value is being created at an increasing or at a shrinking rate?

I agree,,, except for one little word: Perceived. Because in the end, it's not necessarily actual value that drives a market (or economy) it's perceived value, and that can be a fairly soft and unmeasurable thing indeed.

OT: Bill/Kevin/others....a discussion on the importance or lack thereof of US manufacturing which you might want to participate in, at Ricochet:

http://ricochet.com/main-feed/Manufactured-Myths-and-Phony-Nostalgia

Commenting at Ricochet requires (paid) registration...it's a useful site with good discussions...alternatively, if you want to respond here, I can post a link back from the discussion thread.

Al - the GDP is actually calculated in terms of both goods produces and services produced. Goods produced is a lot closer to the truth (although it would be slightly understated to the extent that some services actually do ceate wealth.

Bill - yes, perceived value is the rub. A lot of people think their customers perceive a lot more value in what they do than is actually the case. And a lot of companies spend a lot of money on marketing in order to create a greater perception of value than their product merits.

David - thanks. I read the author's bio ... Dartmouth English major, bounced around in finance and telecom, now a building contractor in Arizona ,,, where his credentials as either an economic thinker or a manufacturing sector expert come from is mysterious.

Hi Bill

I really like the thoughts you shared today. The one thing I would point out is that yes some value can be created by a service, however a service cannot add wealth to the society, it can only; help preserve it, redistribute it, or destroy it. As in the end it actually adds nothing extra to an item that the producer could not do themselves, it is just that they can often due at a lower cost thus they help preserve wealth, which is the best case.

By the way at one time GDP represented only resources extracted, agricultural production, and manufacturing output, services did not count, can't remember when in the seventies or eighties they got added around the same time as the boom in finacial services and mega retailing started and was heralded as the future service economy. Only one question those economist never answered who would have a need for services when there is zero production and zero new wealth created?

Robert,

Generally I agree with you, however, there are some products that only create wealth when used by people in the 'service' sector. Medical technology comes to mind. An EKG machine can enhance the length and quality of life, but only when a skilled medical professional is there to read and interpret the results - without that service person to use it the machine is little more than a very big, expensive doorstop that represents a complete waste of labor and natural resources.

Value is that quality of anything which renders it desirable. Who decides my desire for shopping on the internet versus at Wal-Mart, or to buy a CD (product) for $15 versus hearing the actual artist in concert for $50. Heck, eating a $5 hot dog at a ballgame offers me more "value" than a $1 hot dog in the cafeteria If the U.S. had "0" manufacturing capability (other than perhaps defense)would it really matter as long as we grew and executed our service economy better than anyone else (e.g., arts/entertainment, healthcare, retail, agriculture, education, restaurants, mining, transportation, repairs and maintenance). The math would still work the same: $1 lean manufactured goods = $1 lean service value. Hence GDP should simply be the sum of everything done in exchange for a dollar (not just goods produced).

Interesting economics, Bob G.

Let me get this straight: If “GDP should simply be the sum of everything done in exchange for a dollar (not just goods produced)”, Then …

You and I go out for a beer and while we are there you talk me into giving you $100 for a life insurance policy, according to you the GDP of the United States went up by the simple act of $100 going from my pocket to yours in exchange for transferring some of my risk to you …

And if, during the same conversation I talk you into giving me the $100 back in exchange for a car insurance policy, the economy of the United States grew by $200, even though all we have done is swapped the same hundred dollar bill back and forth and simply offloaded some of our life risks on each other …

And if we meet again next month and both raise our prices, charging each other $200 this time, we have doubled the contribution to the US economy …. The wealth of the USA went up by $400 as a result of this swapping.

Now let’s say you have been paying some kid to cut your grass every week for years. He charges you $20, as would every other grass cutter in your area. Now I come along and between my smooth talking and your gullibility I convince you that I am a superior grass cutter and you agree to pay me $50. However, I am lying. I use the same lawn mower with the same blade sharpness and do exactly what the kid has been doing. The fact that I have conned you – basically stole $30 from you – means the GDP of the United States went up by $30 simply because you don’t know you were conned?

If this is true we could solve the recession by simply letting all of the scammers and con artists out of prison and cut them loose to grow the economy. If you pay $10 for something clearly worth $5 just because you don’t know any better, the more people that get duped the better for the GDP according to your economics.

One question (to be clear agriculture and mining are goods producing and not part of the service economy), if we had “ ‘0’ manufacturing capability’ and had to import the trillions of dollars we consume each year in manufactured goods, where would the money come from to pay for those goods? Services don’t get exported to any great degree, so if we keep sending trillions to China every year to pay for the goods we need, but only take a few billion in every year for the services we export, we would soon run out of money. What do you propose we do? Just print more? This is a pretty important question so I look forward to your answer. After all, the balance of trade if pretty important so I am anxious to hear why you think it can be ignored.

Bill, the math still works the same. If we imported trillions of dollars in manufactured goods from China, while exporting trillions of dollars of services we are equal. Your notion that a dollar of manufactured goods is better somehow than a dollar of services provided is off the mark. The arguement that there is more demand for manufactured dollars than service dollars in the import/export business is the real issue. That's the reason to produce more at home.

You're right Bob. The gap in demand for imported goods versus exported services is the problem. In 2011 we hada negative balnae of trade of some $778 billion in goods, only partially offset by a positive balance of $178 billion in services, for a net negative of $600 billion.

No one has proposed an economic scheme for a quadrupling of our service exports for the simple reason that most services can be performed just as well in other countries - often cheaper (i.e. call services and transaction processing outsourced to India).

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