Craig Anderson, a regular reader, very knowledgeable lean thinker and correspondent, sent along the link to a video of a Brit by the name of John Seddon, who is lecturing about lean in a very compelling style. Seddon is primarily a lean service oriented guy, but the lessons from this lecture are universal. I highly recommend that you spend a few minutes listening to Mr Seddon.
Thanks John - Thanks Craig.
Evolving Excellence
There is plenty more of John speaking and his systems thinking method in The Systems Thinking Review.
Posted by: Howard | 03 February 2010 at 02:01 AM
It sounds like John has run across some Kaizen Kowboys in his work and has interpreted that to be Lean. Lean as I understand it is very similar to what John describes as Systems Thinking. Are Lean Thinking and Systems Thinking essentially the same or am I not grasping the essence of Systems Thinking?
Posted by: Gary | 03 February 2010 at 01:35 PM
I agree, Gary, that there does seem to be a Kaizen Kowboy bias in his view of lean, however, I believe from what I have seen and read elsewhere that Seddon has a pretty good overall handle on lean. My take is that he uses terms like 'systems thinking', rather than lean in order to clearly differentiate himself from the Kaizen Kowboys.
I believe you are absolutely right. What he calls 'system thinking' is really what we would call the value stream. He is talking about the business as an interconnected series of activities needed to cut across the organization to satisfy customers, rather than a collection of isolated activities. I agree with him that excellence requires the ability to think of the business as a system, which many people find very hard to do.
Whether we want to call that integrated, cross-functional view of things 'system thinking' or a 'value stream' doesn't really matter, so long as we all understand the principle.
Posted by: Bill Waddell | 03 February 2010 at 01:46 PM
I am a huge fan of Seddon's "Freedom from Command and Control" and other works. But, John has recently drawn a line in the sand where anybody other than his true believer followers qualifies as a "toolhead" or other such insults, whether you deserve it or not.
If you think Bill is cantankerous... look out for Seddon. I don't think he believes in the "respect for people" part of the lean or systems thinking philosophy.
I'm personally quite turned off by Seddon's style, which gets in the way of the message, I think. His monthly newsletter, instead of being informative, is a list of who he hates now or who is an idiot for not listening to him. It's sort of sad...
Posted by: Mark Graban | 04 February 2010 at 06:41 AM
I think everyone is saying the same thing here, that lean done well IS systems thinking.
John is a true follower of Deming and Ackoff (maybe I'm speaking out of turn on his behalf), and he does have a clear distain for "tool heads" which we might call people that focus completely on tools and not principles (or why you use the tool), which I think we all can agree is bad regardless if they are purporting to support lean or Six Sigma.
Ohno wasn't known as the "nicest" guy either, and Deming came off as rude/belligerent to some who chose not to believe in what he proposed. At what point do you continue to allow someone to walk toward a cliff before you break down to yelling at them to stop and then finally tackle them to make them stop? Or do you continue to be "respectful" and let them walk right off? I think John sees these wrong-headed pursuits as akin to walking toward a cliff, and in areas of Government especially I can't fault him for that. Questioning people's direction, methods, beliefs or behavior is not necessarily disrespectful. I don't have to agree with you to respect you. Sometimes a blunt question is what spurs a change in thinking.
John is really on to something if you listen. And yes, just like Bill, he does rant at times, but show me somebody who really cares about change, and I'll show you someone who rants.
Bill, thanks for highlighting John in this circle.
PS - I'm a huge fan of both Bill and John (and you too Mark)
Posted by: Steve Harper | 04 February 2010 at 12:41 PM
I doubt John Seddon is going to change many minds by calling people "toolheads" or idiots or threatening to slap them around.
Case in point, his last newsletter. He goes on and on about how stupid the head of the British revenue service is and he wonders why she doesn't answer his phone calls? It's unproductive grandstanding.
Seddon is right to criticize "command and control", but I wouldn't put him on par with Ohno or Deming.
Posted by: Mark Graban | 04 February 2010 at 04:48 PM
The problem I had watching Seddon in that video was that I believe completely in what he proposes but he still came off as rude/belligerent to me. I consider myself a recovering toolhead - recovering because I've taken the time to study the work of Demming and Ohno (and others) and learn the thinking behind the tools. If my first introduction to Demming & Ohno was this video, I don't think I would have bothered to do more research. Just personal preference of style I guess...
Posted by: Gary | 05 February 2010 at 06:16 AM
I have to agree with Mark and Gary on this one, I've seen john Seddon speak several times now and he is without doubt a bit of a bully, and prone to ad hominem attacks.
I've worked with a few people who have been "Vanguarded" and they were a bit traumatised by the experience.
It's a shame really because I liked his books and use some of his ideas in my own work.
Posted by: James | 07 February 2010 at 09:58 AM
Probably the real question is whether the thinking is wrong. The curious will seek and others will sulk.
I like the no BS delivery, Deming was clearly of this ilk. No patience for dolts.
Posted by: Tripp Babbitt | 11 February 2010 at 08:47 AM
I would also like to say that systems thinking is different as it applies Deming's thoughts. No where to be found in most "lean" material until recently.
In working with John and his group, I have found that tools have not gotten in the way of the learning. This is where systems thinking (ala Vanguard) has separated itself. John has advanced the thinking. New ways to solve problems have emerged.
Posted by: Tripp Babbitt | 11 February 2010 at 08:57 AM
The curious will seek and the "new systems thinkers" will sit back and criticize and lob insults at those who aren't in their special little fold.
Posted by: Mark Graban | 12 February 2010 at 06:15 AM
Sorry to re-hash an old thread, but I've been reading the latest discussion on Mark Graban's blog, aghast at the name calling and "discussion" that comes from John Seddon's followers.
I had remembered this post and the comment that Seddon could be a bully. That seems to be the trait of his fringe element.
I was watching the video you linked to and I was aghast at what Seddon was taking credit for.
At about 19:15 he says:
"I developed the model of Check Do Act."
Actually, Brian Joiner published that Check Do Act model in his 1994 book "Fourth Generation Management."
Joiner shares this Check-Act-Plan-Do model on page 49 of his book, talking about why it's more appropriate to start the cycle with "Check."
At best, Seddon is derivative of Joiner (I saw that Joiner's book is curiously missing from his of recommended books, this can't be an accident) or Seddon is ripping him off and not giving credit where it's due.
Posted by: Anonymous | 06 October 2010 at 05:36 PM
Re: derivative of Joiner
Could also simply be parallel insight and not being aware of previous work.
Posted by: Jason YIp | 05 December 2010 at 02:15 PM
I appreciate Jason giving John the benefit of the doubt, but there is a picture of Seddon with Brian Joiner's book over his shoulder. I'm certain he is aware of his work and just doesn't give credit where it is due:
http://seddonwatch.blogspot.com/2011/02/brian-joiners-book-on-john-seddons.html
Posted by: Seddon Watch | 09 July 2012 at 07:11 PM